Recently, there have been a couple posts at a popular rapture website that show the degree of OSAS blindness and deafness to the circumspect, balanced view of the word . This is a doctrinal train wreck that imperils vulnerable saints . My comments are highlighted in brackets . God, please shield and protect my vulnerable brothers and sisters from the evil one in Jesus’ name I pray … for the devil certainly does not fight fair .
This post from ” Can we Lose our Salvation ? ” Posted June 3, 2016 , plus one other early June post .
Can We Lose Our Salvation?
Q. Can you give me a little history about the Doctrine of losing salvation? When did it first appear in the church and who brought it out into the open? Thanks.
A. Conditional salvation was popularized by the followers of Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch pastor and theologian in the late 16th and early 17th centuries who rejected the Calvinist views he had grown up with. It’s a complicated issue, but simply put Calvinists believe that God determines who will be saved, not man, and that being sovereign His decision is irreversible. Once saved always saved. It’s also called predestination or election.
Arminius put forth the idea that the choice to be saved is man’s, not God’s, and is based on faith. But if he loses the faith to believe, he can lose his salvation. Since man can choose, he can also un-choose. Some call it agency or choice.
Calvinists and Arminians share an advocacy of reformed theology differing primarily in this area. (Most of the main line denominations were built on the foundation of reformed theology.) Today, the debate over which view is correct continues mostly among evangelicals, some of whom have expanded Arminian doctrine to also include post-salvation sinfulness as a way to lose one’s salvation.
Sadly, many involved in this debate fail to consider advancements in our understanding of the nature of time, which make each view correct in what it asserts and incorrect in what it denies. (Calvinists assert eternal security and deny man’s choice. Arminians assert choice but deny security.) We now know that time is a physical property affecting only physical beings. God being a Spirit is not confined to time. Neither Calvin nor Arminius understood this.
[ Arminians assert that we can choose to abide faithfully and thus be secure . ] [ My Comment .]
The key passage on this issue is Romans 8:29-30 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
God, being outside of time, sees the end from the beginning. Before He created Adam he knew everyone who was going to choose Him (He foreknew) and so He made a place for them in His Kingdom (He predestined). Somewhere in the life span of each person who will choose Him, He creates the circumstances for them to make their choice (He calls). When they respond, as He knows they will, He allows the blood of Jesus to wash them clean (He justifies) and at the appointed time He will grant them glorified bodies and welcome them to their place in His Kingdom reserved for them from the foundation of the world. (He glorifies)
Did they make a free choice? Yes. Did He already know what their choice would be? Yes. Once you put God outside of time, there’s no conflict between choice and predestination. And as Romans 8 makes clear, there’s no fall out in this process. Everyone who is foreknown completes the cycle and ends up glorified.
[ Except for those who commit killing sin and destroy their own access to the Blood of Christ; Heb 10:29 .]
[ And having done so, remove the adhesive factor – the Blood – that allows the Seal of the Spirit to remain in them . ] [ See various posts at www.losingsalvation.com . ]
That’s because God’s relation to time also handles the post-salvation sin issue. Hebrews 10:12 says that Jesus was sacrificed once for all time. That means that His one act of sacrifice for sin covers all of man’s sins for all of time. That’s why the writer could continue by saying in verse 14 that by one sacrifice he has made us perfect for ever.
[ Forgiveness of future sins is conditional upon repentance as in 1 John 1: 9 . God requires honesty.]
There’s no such thing as a Christian who doesn’t continue to sin. But every sin that you ever have or ever will commit is covered by the blood of Jesus. From your first moment of belief you were saved, and God sealed His Holy Spirit within you as a deposit guaranteeing your inheritance (Ephes. 1:13-14).
[ Except for the saint who counts as common / profane the Blood of Christ as in Heb 10:29 ” by which he WAS sanctified ” … Past tense !!! ]
Fair Use For Education and Discussion Purposes
[ Another comments like this : ]
We don’t keep ourselves saved. If we did, no man ever would get to be with God, because ALL of us have points where we question, fall away from our walk, go our own way. he will not allow any of us to be snatched from his hand.
[ There is sin not unto death, and sin unto death, 1 John 5 : 16 – 17 . Sinning willfully as in Heb 10: 26 – 29 is killing sin . And John 10:28 does not preclude any Christian from willfully departing Christ any more than it precludes physical death for the saint of God . We must view scripture circumspectly and balance the whole counsel of God . ]
[ Some are willing to look at the Arminian argument : ]
Peter says it is better for them if they had not known the way of righteousness then to have known it and returned to their sinful state. Someone who doesn’t know the way of salvation is already unsaved. Why would it be better to have not known it then to have known it then turned away?
[ Error : These had escaped others living in error ; 2 Pet 2:18 . They had escaped the defilements of the world THROUGH KNOWING CHRIST; V. 20 . Escaping defilement via Christ is to be saved and CLEAN in Him ! And V. 22 portrays the sow who washed clean, but returned to WALLOW in mire . Compare with Jesus washing Peter’s feet ; Peter did not need TOTAL washing !!! The person in 2 Pet 2:20-21 is a believer who becomes LOST AGAIN and totally dirty once more , covered with MIRE !!! ]
[ It is because the christian who forsakes Christ destroys his own access to the Blood and is lost again, thus irredeemable , worse than the average lost person who has never been saved but is redeemable ; for Christ will not be crucified the second time for anyone . Heb 6 : 4 – 8 . ]
[ The same person comments again : ]
I think Paul is crystal clear in Romans chapter eleven 19-23 when he clearly teaches that one can be cut off from the vine … If …one does not remain in His kindness. I can’t imagine anyone could still be saved being cut off from God. Paul’s vine and branches metaphor is very easy to understand.
Anyway, really good debate…
[ Correct . In John 15 , the branch abiding in Christ bears fruit . The fruitless branch has been OVERCOME and has NO FRUIT … has NO heart for God … Has forsaken Christ by willfully ceasing to ABIDE . ]
[ For which he was soundly rebuked by a site moderator : ]
mighty2save, this thread is consistent with our beliefs here at [ Omitted ] and is edifying and encouraging. However, the issue Jack Kelley was referring to, the issue of eternal security, is notup for debate.
This is part of [ Omitted ]’s Statement of Faith:
~ SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER ~
We believe in the eternal security of every true believer who is sealed by the Holy Spirit under the terms of the New Covenant. We believe Jesus is the true Vine in which we abide and the Author and Perfecter of our faith, who will complete the good work begun in us. (1 Thessalonians 5:24; 2 Thessalonians 3:3; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 12:2; Romans 8:1-2; Romans 8:31-39; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Eph. 1:13-14; Eph. 2:8-9; Philippians 1:6; Jude 24; John 6:39; John 10:28; John 17:6-12; 1 Peter 1:3-4)
[ In Romans 7: 18, Paul says ” for to will is present with me . ” We have a free will ! And the command to abide in John 15 is precisely because we can potentially misuse our wills ! ]
[ They must assume that ALL Christians abide at all times and that none has a free will to choose to willfully fall away as portrayed in Heb 6 : 4 – 8 linked above , addressing CHRISTIANS who were partakers of the Holy Spirit . Perhaps desperate NOT to see an unwanted truth … meanwhile, vulnerable Christians are losing all after losing their status through killing sin they didn’t think was possible . ]
Eternal Security will not be debated here. I guess I didn’t understand clearly that’s what you were doing and was under the impression you were just asking questions for clarification. Since that’s not the case, I’ll kindly ask you to stop posting regarding the possibility of losing salvation. It is inconsistent with our goals and beliefs here and is harmful to other believers. If you’d like to discuss further, emailing the mods is always an option. The main forum is not.
[ What is more harmful to other Christians than a little fear is the prospect of being deceived by false doctrine that allows satan to function covertly and to attack those who are weak, wounded, offended, tempted , etc ., or vulnerable though the deadly factors I have blogged about . Roving packs of demonic wolves are marauding about the church looking for at – risk persons to launch a salvation attack against . I know all about it … having barely survived it myself … ]
[ The Key Master comments : ]
Since Gods Holy Word is clear that God sealed each true believer with His Holy Spirit, it should be very apparent that true believers BELONG to HIM and not themselves. He is the only one that is able to break that seal of ownership and that is why it also says that He will never lose any.
[ We are not our own ; we were bought with a price . 1 Cor 6:20 . However , this has nothing to do with the fact that we can destroy the arrangement through willful , killing sin . See Blog post Losing Salvation and the Seal of the Spirit . The Seal adheres due to the permeating Blood . Killing sin profanes ( Greek ” hegesamenos ” ) the Blood and causes the believer to lose access to the Blood of Christ . ] [ Heb 10 :29 . ]
[ And then one JohnC : ]
Once you submit yourself to Christ, that doesn’t mean you stop sinning. You don’t. That’s why Jesus died for all a believer’s sins, past, present, and future. There is no sin too big to make you lose your salvation. Jesus took care of it all! However, the only unpardonable sin is unbelief in Jesus.
[ For forgivable sins we must both Confess ( 1 John 1:9 ) and Ask forgiveness ( 1 John 5: 16 ) . And it is not the size of sin, but the quality of sin that kills salvation . One could murder 100 people and be forgiven ; all manner of sin shall be forgiven but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost , Matt 12 : 31 . This can be done only with a few wrong words … and there are various ways to arrive at that kind of blasphemy . ]
Avoiding a Train Wreck !
This is what Jesus wants for all of us:
John 15 (KJV) – I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
[ Really, JohnC ? I can agree with the Abiding and Fruitful and other virtuous parts … but what about the Christian who forsakes Christ , stops abiding , becomes totally without ANY fruit , is cut off and cast into fire ????? Can you show me how anyone who never had Christ was EVER a ” branch IN ME ” ? Remember the most important fruit that God wants from us ! Remember how Christ summarized the law into just two commands ! ]
Matthew 22:37-38New King James Version (NKJV)
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment.
[ Isn’t this the greatest fruit you can give to God ? What does THAT say about the fruitless branch !? And what does that say about those CHRISTIANS who turn from the holy commandment delivered to them in 2 Pet 2:20 – 21 ? ]
Fair use for education and discussion purposes .